Disillusioned JW

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Posts by Disillusioned JW

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  35

  Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

  this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

  i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

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  Disillusioned JW

  Regarding Robert Eisenman's book called James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_Brother_of_Jesus_(book) says the following.

  "The central claim is that Jewish Christianity emerged from the Zadokites, a messianic, priestly, ultra-fundamentalist sect, making them indivisible from the milieu of contemporary movements like the Essenes, Zealots, Nazoreans, Nazirites, Ebionites, Elchasites, Sabeans, Mandaeans, etc.

  In this scenario, the figure of Jesus at first did not have the central importance that it later acquired. The canonical Twelve Apostles were no more than an artificially expanded replacement for the smaller circle of brothers of Jesus. After his crucifixion one of his brothers, James the Just took his place as the leader of this party, besides other factions loyal to Jesus (Ebionites) and to John the Baptist (Mandaeans). The central triad of the early Jerusalem Church will be composed by James, Peter, and John the Apostle. According to Eisenman, James was an important religious figure in his own right."

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Eisenman says the following.

  'As far as Eisenman is concerned, James the Just, the individual Paul actually refers to as either "brother of Jesus" or "the brother of the Lord",[59] is the historical character who exhibits the most in common with "the Teacher of Righteousness" pictured at Qumran and he considers that these events are the ones vividly portrayed in the Habakkuk Commentary. Historically speaking, it is this character who led the "Opposition Movement", including Essenes, Zealots, Sicarii, and/or Nazoreans – even Ebionites – and who, as “Zaddik" (צדיק), i. e., "the Zaddik of the Opposition Movement", about whom all these groups revolved until his death at the hands of the High Priest Ananus ben Ananus in 62 CE as described both in Josephus and Early Church literature.[60] For him, the popularity of James and the illegality of the manner of his death at the hands of the Herodians, establishment High Priesthood, and Pharisees in 62 CE set the stage for and possibly even triggered the First Jewish Revolt against Rome in 66–73 CE – to say nothing of the fire in Rome, not long afterwards which, aside from his probably having set it himself,[dubious – discuss][citation needed] Nero was reported to have blamed on "Christians".'
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  35

  Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

  this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

  i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

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  Disillusioned JW

  Years ago (probably before I became an atheist) I read sections of the some of the books of Robert Eisenman (a biblical scholar, historian, and archaeologist), including the book called James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls. I think I formerly owned a copy of that book. I also read some articles by biblical scholar James Tabor. At https://jamestabor.com/ebionites-nazarenes-tracking-the-original-followers-of-jesus/ James Tabor as an article called "Ebionites & Nazarenes: Tracking the Original Followers of Jesus".
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  21

  The senseless ''non partakers'' Jesus Memorial

  by RULES & REGULATIONS in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  matthew 26: 18-20 .

  18 he said: “go into the city to so-and-so and say to him, ‘the teacher says: “my appointed time is near; i will celebrate the passover with my disciples at your home.19 so the disciples did as jesus instructed them and prepared for the passover.20 when evening came, he was reclining at the table with the 12 disciples.. only jesus and his 12 disciples were present at the passover .if jesus wanted observers, he would of had some sit down at his last meal and requested that they be present that day and future passovers.

  why does the wts feel that observers ( non partakers ) need to attend the yearly memorial?

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  Disillusioned JW

  In the story (which I consider to be fictional) at Deuteronomy 29:10-15 the foreigners are those present at the beginning of the law covenant, not those who came into association with the Jews centuries later. Regarding those foreigners who associated with Jews centuries later the Watchtower of 98 2/1 p.19, par. 6 is correct in saying the following "... foreigners of old laid hold of the Law covenant. In what way? Not by becoming participants in it but by submitting to the laws associated with it and benefiting from its arrangements."
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  35

  Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

  this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

  i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

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  Disillusioned JW

  Instead of saying "Likewise the Hebrew word Elohim ..." I probably should have said 'In contrast the Hebrew word Elohim ...".
  
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  35

  Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

  this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

  i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

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  Disillusioned JW

  Additional content: John 10:34 is quoting from the Psalms 82:6. In the Greek Septuagint translation of that verse the word theoí (gods) is used for the translation of Elohim, and thus excluding (I think) the possible alternate meanings of 'angels', 'godlike beings', and 'judges'. For the Hebrew text of Psalms 82:L26 and an Orthodox Jewish Chabad Hasidic (and thus non-Christian) translation along with it see https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16303/jewish/Chapter-82.htm .
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  35

  Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

  this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

  i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

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  Disillusioned JW

  Correection: I should have said the following. "Likewise the Hebrew word Elohim (which has a range of meanings, including 'God', 'god', 'gods', 'angels', 'godlike beings', and 'judges') sometimes becomes theoí/theoús (gods) in the Greek text (as in John 10:34-35) [see also the annotation to John 10:34 in the NAB 1991 edition of Bible, a Catholic Bible], though most of the time it becomes theos (God/god)."
  
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  28

  Where did Christendom go? They HATED our bible in 1950...just read...

  by oompa in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the articles on the jw-cd which only go back to 1950 where we fought back the attacks.

  i do not understand why they did not continue to blast our bible since it is such a fraud....down south in usa churches teach members how to refute dubs at their door.....but why did they stop blasting the nwt?

  it is sooooooo easy to show a dub there is a bunch of made up crap in it.....i may have to help my local chruches.....if you need more info about the horrible fraud parts, feel free to pm me.........................oompa......even elders dont know

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  Disillusioned JW

  Technically the NAB didn't exist prior to 1970, at least the name of "New American Bible' (NAB) did not exist until 1970. [But maybe the books of 1 Samuel to 2 Maccabees, copyright 1969, were of the NAB.] But the 1970 NAB was based upon (stemmed from) the editions of 1941 and 1969 by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and those editions are thus known as the Confraternity Bible and the "New Catholic Edition". [I used to those early editions (most of which were published as bound with books of the Bible in the Challoner-Douay-Rheims version translation in regards to books not yet translated by the Confraternity, in order to provide a complete Bible.] See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confraternity_Bible and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Bible . [I own the 1986 revision of the NAB, but I no longer own any other editions of the NAB nor any editions of the Confraternity Bible (New Catholic Edition).]
  
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  35

  Refuting the Alleged Evidence of Jesus' Resurrection

  by truth_b_known in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  in the past few months there have been a few debates on this site over alleged evidence of the resurrection of jesus.

  this can be a hot topic as most would agree that without the resurrection of jesus there would be no christianity.

  i am not so sure of that, but i am more sure that dr. gary habermas' minimal facts approach to the resurrection has no evidentiary basis.. here is a 22 minute video on the topic.

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  Disillusioned JW

  Hi pistolpete, I agree with all or nearly all of what you posted on the other topic thread, about Paul's gospel being a different gospel. I had learned of much of that years ago. From the years of about 2000 - about 2009 (or possibly until later than 2009) I read the entire Bible (including the apocrypha), and studied the Bible, using only non-JW translations. I also studied with the aid of commentaries of 'Christendom', and evangelical books which are critical of WT teachings, and web pages promoting ex-Christian ideas. I also read and studied some of Bart Ehrman's books (I checked them out from the library). I thus knew of Paul speaking of what he called "my Gospel". What I didn't know however is that NWT instead uses the wording of "the good news I declare".

  You posts at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6221415232569344/my-gospel make an excellent case for showing that prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE that Paul's version of Christianity competed with, and was significantly different from, the Christianity (or messianic Judaism) of the Torah keeping Jewish believers in Jesus.

  Biblical scholars know there were Torah keeping Jews known as Nazarenes and those known as Ebionites who considered themselves followers of Jesus (but I am not sure if Jesus really existed as a historical person), but who also considered Paul/Saul as a false teacher and a corrupter of the teachings of Jesus the Nazarene.

  I read that the Torah keeping Jews who accepted Jesus (in other words, those of the circumcision faction of Jesus' followers) nearly eventually out competed Paul's sect. But, after Jerusalem (which was the base of operations of Torah keeping followers of Jesus) fell in 70 CE and after if fell again after the defeat of the Bar Kokhba Revolt in Judea in 135 CE, the sect founded by Paul became the doctrinal victors of the early Jesus movement.

  A number of atheists teaching the Christ myth theory (which I largely accept) say that the letters of Paul are the most reliable sources for determining the earliest teachings of Christianity, but I think that is primarily only the case for the Pauline sect of Christianity. I think it reveals little of the non-Pauline Torah keeping version of messianism based in belief in Jesus the Nazarene. I think the Gospels, the letter of the Hebrews, and possibly even the book of Revelation are much better sources for determining what the Torah keeping non-Pauline believers in Jesus (and gentile Greek speaking Proselytes [who at least kept the Noahide Laws] to such) believed in.

  Regarding Revelation being a possible witness to non-Pauline Torah keeping Jewish believers in Jesus, see Revelation 14:12.

  I suspect that most of the pre-Pauline believers in Jesus were Greek speaking (instead of predominately Hebrew or Aramaic speaking) believers in Jesus. That is partly because that which are extant of what are called the Gospel of the Hebrews, the Gospel of the Nazarenes, and the Gospel of the Ebionites are in Greek. [But all of the extant copies of these might be translations from Hebrew into Greek, or possibly even concoctions by Greek church 'fathers'.] Another reason is that a number of Christian ideas in the NT seem to be dependent upon the wording of the Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew scriptures.

  The wording of the Septuagint in some verses allows for a larger range of interpretation of the scriptures than does the wording of the Hebrew text, and as a result allows more for some uniquely Christian interpretations of the pre-Christian Jewish scriptures. For one example, the name YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah) becomes Kyrios (Lord) in the Greek text. Likewise the Hebrew word Elohim (which has a range of meanings, including 'angels') becomes theoús (gods) in the Greek text.
  
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  45

  Owe Raymond Franz my life anyone else??

  by Witness 007 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  so imagine a governining body member faithful slave who's uncle wrote the new world translalation bible and predicted 1975 would be armagedon writes a book in 1980 that changed my whole life...thank you raymond franz for setting me and my wife free love this man forever.

  true pioneer!

  👍 love ❤️ .

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  Disillusioned JW

  Does the "Aid to bible understanding" really say that the "607 b.c.e 1914 was impossible to prove"? I didn't notice that when I read about 607 B.C.E in the Aid book, though I did notice that the book tried to refute the views of the scholars who said 586/587 B.C.E./B.C. instead.

  Though Ray Franz wrote a considerable part of the Aid book, I don't think he wrote the whole book.

  Imagine what the WT teachings and its religion would be today if Raymond Franz had remained on the governing body for 20 more years than he did, and if he had become the primary one of the governing body.

  Foolednomore, it is atypical that the WT religion doesn't highly esteem it old literature. Most religions esteem their old literature. The Jewish religion for example still reads a version of the Hebrew holy Scriptures (Tanakh) for example. The SDA still publish editions of Ellen G. White's books, despite the SDA religion having been founded before the WT religion.

  Since a number of people are saying how Raymond's book called Crisis of Conscience opened their figurative eyes about the nature of the WT organization, maybe I should check out that book from the library and give it another look, a much more thorough reading.
  
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  30

  Jw's sending me invites and letters, I don't get it.

  by Foolednomore in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  first off, i have made it real clear with jw's my thoughts on being a jw.

  i'm out, there is no coming back.. second, i'm on their " do not call list" .. so why now all of a sudden my mailbox is getting bombed 💣 by their memorial invites and letters?.

  don't they follow their do not call list?

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  Disillusioned JW

  Its weird that they are trying so much to bring you back to the org. They are acting like corporations repeatedly sending advertisements to people.